... i can do the same thing take bits and parts of a conversation and put them together.

Malcom Reynolds (11/19/2009)

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And you called me a troll.



Not hatred, Fear. A young child driving a car may not have malice in his heart, but is a danger to all.

I think there is plenty of room for pragmatic conservatives in this party. There is a big difference between my idea of smaller, restrained, dare I say "conservative" government and the strident Libertarian party line.

But we had best save our swords for another day. We are off topic and the Mods are lurking...

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Now, I can’t say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don’t each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves. But again, I stand on my statement that I think that libertarianism and conservatism are travelling the same path.

Don't be afraid, Regan wasn't.

This is actually something that has concerned me for some time now, that conservative has come to be rebranded as libertarianism. If that were the case, I suppose I'd be as un-conservative as they come, since I am conservative in the sense of Abraham Lincoln (social rights, anti-free trade) and the Republican party in those days, but not in the sense of Ronald Reagan and libertarians.

Indeed, I am on the opposite side of the spectrum from libertarians. Rather than being socially liberal and fiscally liberal I am socially conservative and fiscally liberal (for purposes of this I am referring to fiscally liberal as being fiscally conservative, i.e. wanting balanced budgets but not necessarily miniscule government).

I suppose this is why there are becoming more and more pro-life Democrats and conservative 3rd parties. The increasingly libertarian, anarchist Republican Party is alienating us social conservatives who are free-thinking when it comes to economic principles so that the pro-life groups and social conservatives are steadily moving either to the Democrat party or to 3rd parties/independents.

Jon Spurgeon (11/20/2009)

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[quote]I guess everyone has their defenition of 'conservative' and they're all probably different, at least slightly.

I tend to agree there is an incresingly libertarian sentement in the republican party. Like Dr Paul says "Freedom is popular".

Joshua Zambrano (11/21/2009)Libertarianism often advocates smaller government and a reversion to anti-federalism, governing of the states.

We haven't really seen this debate at the same scale I think since the early days of the nation.

Federalists:

George Washington
Abraham Lincoln
Benjamin Franklin
John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Alexander Hamilton
Judge John Marshall
John Jay

Anti-Federalists:

Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Paine
Samuel Adams
Patrick Henry
Richard Henry Lee
George Mason
Judge Robert Yates
George Clinton
Melancton Smith
Mercy Otis Warren

Obviously, there are some very admirable people on both sides, and to say either was opposed fundamentally to liberty or freedom would be making a premature, and very wrong, conclusion. I used the term 'anarchist' earlier because many of the Libertarians I see today are advocating not only smaller government and a reversion to state rights, but also saying that government itself is bad in their attempt to support free markets and deregulation almost religiously.

Ultimately however, libertarians vs. social conservatives does not necessarily mean Federalist v. Anti-Federalists now that I think about it, although there can be overlap (I think libertarians are Anti-Federalist, but Anti-Federalists are not necessarily libertarians). For one thing, Anti-Federalists were not necessarily in support of free markets originally, at least not that I can see, and seemed to have been supportive of commerce regulations, just so long as they were state-governed rather than federally-governed.

EDIT: I've removed James Madison from the list of Federalists. I at first labeled him one since he was one of the major authors of the Federalist Papers, but he later began becoming an anti-Federalist in some ways, so I am hesitant to put him in either category.